What trinitarians believe, is misrepresented by those in the LHMM. They spend time refuting a form of modalism, which is different than the trinity doctrine. Arguments like, "How could Jesus pray to himself, while here on earth?" is based on refuting modalism, and not the trinity doctrine. They set up a straw man argument and then proceed to defeat it with logic. If you don't understand the trinity doctrine and then proceed to disprove your misunderstanding you haven't really accomplished anything.
The following scripture passage strongly supports the Trinity.
“I and the Father are one.” Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." John 10: 30-33 (NIV)
The verse “I and the Father are one” can not mean one IN PURPOSE as the LHMM claims. If it did, then the Jews would not wish to stone Jesus. In fact, they would be happy that he considers himself in the Father's will as they would also desire to be. Wouldn't the Jews, who lived in the time of Jesus and spoke his language understand better what he meant than we could today?
The Bible speaks clearly about The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are all spoken of with some similar attributes that can be used in reference to God only. The Bible also tells us clearly that there is one true God. The dilemma is then...how can we reconcile this apparent contradiction? The doctrine of the trinity does this by stating that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three different expressions or personalities of the one true God. "For there are three who bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." 1 John 5:7-8
This solves several issues and problems in interpretation and practice for Christians. For example, Who do you worship or pray to? Jehovah the Father or Jesus? The trinitarian answer is that it is OK to worship or pray to both since they are expressions of the same God. Jesus accepted this idea when Thomas said "my Lord and my God!" John 20:28
An advantage of the Trinity is that it makes God very personal and caring. The idea that God Himself totally sympathizes with us and understands us...so much so that he is willing to enter our world and sacrifice even more than his Son...in a sense himself. In that way Christianity is totally unique from any other religion...in that God Himself came into our world to save us and in the process came to know us intimately. 1 Tim 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory."
Does this seem so unreasonable? Isn't it somewhat attractive? When you look at the fruit of many Christians that believe in the Trinity you will see the doctrine does not do damage to the Christian faith. They often have more zeal for spreading the Gospel than those in the LHMM who call themselves missionaries and yet do little real missionary work.
LHMMers that do not believe in the Trinity often think they have more understanding about God and who He is than Trinitarians. This is an illusion. By stating the definitions of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in a different way it doesn't really mean you know any more. There is just as much mystery surrounding God that way. Often in life we will assign something a name and then somehow think that we know more about it when we don't. The more we understand, the greater we realize how much we do not know. Coming to terms and being OK with not knowing and fully trusting in God is the next step.
How important can the Trinity doctrine be for Christians if there is no way to understand it correctly without the aid of Russell or Johnson's writings?
A plain reading of the Bible will easily lead one to believe that Jesus is God. "For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself EQUAL WITH GOD." John 5:18 What about all the people that are just now getting the Scriptures in their native language? What hope is there for them to possibly understand God's Word?
Check out the sermon "Jesus: Avatar or God?" for an interesting discussion.
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The purpose of this blog is to discuss the teachings and practices of Bible Standard Ministries (BSM)...formerly known as the Laymen's Home Missionary Movement or LHMM.
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To say that many brethren in the LHMM do not fully understand the Trinity is to mask the fact that many Christians who profess the doctrine do not properly understand it, either.
Granted, some attacks on the doctrine of the Triune God which have been mounted in LHMM literature are poorly aimed. But so are some of the arguments raised in support of it by well-intentioned advocates.
Setting the idea of One-ness aside, our Lord's expression, "I and the Father" (John 10: 30) would have struck the Jews who heard it as audacious and sacrilegious, correctly understanding that Jesus included Himself in the company of God.
In verses 28 and 29 Jesus claimed for Himself the same protective power over His disciples as the Father had ("my hand," "my Father's hand"). The ultimate in name-dropping! And a claim to be not merely an associate — that would be blasphemy enough — but a son, by implication entitled to status in a Divine family. Moses had been excluded from entering the holy land for less — "Must we . . ." (Numbers 20: 10).
The reaction of the Jews to Jesus' assertion is too fragile a base to support the doctrine of the Trinity. John 5: 18 clearly shows that the Jews considered our Lord's statement that He was the Son of God to mean He was "equal" with God.
Even apart from the idea of the Trinity, the close identity of Jesus with His Father does indeed justify the praise and worship which the brethren of the LHMM accord the Son.
John 20: 28 is a more difficult case, but it's not inconsistent with the rank and the "as God" status of Christ since His resurrection (when Thomas made his exclamation).
Perhaps instead of the dubious KJV version of 1 John 5: 7, the writer of this article intended 1 John 5: 8, a less tendentious reading (v. 7, 8 in the NIV).
please refer tischendorf about spurious Bible passages
I JOHN 5
7- 8 SVA For there are three that bear record, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and these three agree in one (om. in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth)
the sign “om.” denotes that the words to which it is prefixed are omitted in the original Greek manuscripts;
if John 10:30 means that Jehovah and Jesus are one ,
does John 17:21 mean that the apostles also share unity with Jehovah and Jesus
this refers to unity in spirit(character) rather than unity in person
Jesus, is one* with his God and Father. -- John 10:30.
In what way is he one with his Father?
Jesus prays for his followers to be one*, just as he is with his God and Father. -- John 17:11.
Jesus prays that his followers may all be one, just as he is one with his God and Father. -- John 17:21.
Jesus prays that his followers may be one in himself and his Father, just as he is with his God and Father. -- John 17:21.
Jesus prays that his followers may one, just as he is one with his God and Father. -- John 17:22.
Nothing in any of this means that Jesus is Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who sent Jesus.
*The Greek word for the adjective "one" is *hen* [which is neuter], not "mia" [feminine], as in the trinitarian formula: "treis hypostaseis en mia ousia" (three persons in one being). Notice that ousia is feminine, and thus the Greek calls for the feminine form of the word for one, that is "mia". Nor is it speaking of "one God", for then Jesus would have used the word "heis" (masculine) in order to match the Greek word for God (which is masculine), as Paul does in 1 Corinthians 8:6. Likewise, if Jesus meant that he and his Father were one Father, then he would have used the masculine "heis", since the Greek word 'AB is masculine. His choice of the Greek neuter indicates that he is using the adjective "one" to describe a relationship that is defined by a Greek neuter word. More than likely, in view of the way Jesus uses same word in connection with his and his father's relationship to the followers of Jesus, Jesus is referring a union that reflects his being in aggreement with his God and Father, as perhaps "one mind", as in Revelation 17:13, or one spirit (as disposition), as Philippians 1:27.
For more study on John 10:30, see:
http://godandson.reslight.net/john-10-30.html
In service of Jesus and his God,
Ronald
Points convincingly made.
How could Jesus be “equal to God” Jn 5:18 and yet say at Jn 14:28that “the Father is greater than I am”
Points convincingly made.
How could Jesus be “equal to God” Jn 5:18 and yet say at Jn 14:28that “the Father is greater than I am”
Here's one possible response.
http://carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/if-jesus-god-then-why-did-he-say-father-was-greater-he
the problem is that Jesus prayed to the father and called Him the only true GOD, Jehovah. As a jew Jesus was a worshipper of Jehovah,the Father. as Jesus followers we should pray to and worship the only true GOD,the Father Jehovah.
Truth be made....no trinity,nice smoke screen from some who have known the truth. This is how the doctrine of "love only" blurs lies about the true God.
The trinity here is not based on one single Bible verse! The author has read into scripture to add another person or used a well known spurious verse. Maybe the zeal for this teaching is as great as the zeal for the former beliefs. Really proves very little as far as any "proof" for the currant stand.
LHMM does have a better understanding about God.
Jehovah is God alone. According to the Bible, but not according to the Pharisees.
To accept the word of the Pharisees is no different than accepting Satan’s words at Gen 3:1-5 when he said that God was lying. Eve believed and lost her life.
To accept an individual as they truly are helps any relationship to flourish.
To deny a persons true identity as they have revealed does not draw anyone close.
Abraham was God’s friend, the Almighty. To no other person does the Bible give Almighty as a description. Almighty can only apply to one. Mighty can apply to many, as in the case of Jesus.
You oversimplify your argument. You need to take into account all scripture and harmonize them in order to come to a conclusion. "All power in heaven and earth" was given to Jesus. Is that not almighty?
NO! Paul at 1 cor. 15:24-28 that "everything" does not include Gog himself. Very clear scripture to create harmony.
God Himself, not Gog.......excuse me
I believe that comment did not oversimplify, it had already taken into account what you have not.
Not to mention that having "all power GIVEN"to Jesus does not make him almighty. That would be reading into a scripture. Almighty is never applied to Jesus. That 1 Corinthians 15 scripture quoted above answers that right from the Bible,"it is clear that it does not include God Himself who put everything under Christ" The same God the Father that Jesus said was the only true God in Jn 17.
Jesus is called God in several passages in the Bible. These include John 1:1; 20:28; Hebrews 1:8; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1; and 1John 5:26. Other passages, such as Romans 9:5; Philippians 2:6f; and Colossians 2:9, ascribe deity to Jesus, thereby showing Him to be God.
There are plenty of places on the internet where the doctrine of the trinity is debated. We can't have a comprehensive discussion here. My main point is that such a doctrine and its debate should not be a basis for salvation or fellowship with other Christians. It is a deep study...and there is always some mystery around fully understanding God.
Jesus is a god. Satan, Paul and others are called god in several passages. This does not prove that Jesus is God. Jesus said that the Father is THE only true God. Never does the Bible say this of Jesus or anyone else. God in Greek is simply a title to be applied to anyone with power and or authority. Jesus referred to THE true God, that distinguishes the Father from any other in scripture.
Your verses do not change the clear verses of 1 Cor. 15 and Jn 17 among others that are without interpretation.
No mystery to Bible writers. Jesus said the jews worshipped what they knew.
It is evident that the answer to this question is not simple...otherwise there would be no debate. Just do a Google search. Why has God provided us with a Bible that can be interpreted in different ways? Possibly so that we can develop faith and love?
Not when we are told that interpretations belong to God.When our statements are not found in scripture, it is not a Bible teaching. One example is the argument of John 10:30. "I and the Father are one." First of all if we take that verse in a literal way, that would mean that the Father and son make up the one godhead, That disproves the trinity and proves a dual godhead.
When the word "one" is used by John at John 17:22 would have to mean that all believers are part of the godhead. 1 Cor 3:8 translates the same word as "one purpose." When we let the Bible interpret itself we have no debate.
John used a word that meant one in purpose. The trinity was adopted over many years after the Bible was completed. This fact is recognized by most trinitarians.
Who did Jesus worship?
To follow in his footsteps, be a christian, imitate him, we will worship the same God that he did?
The response to the original post supply scriptures that are simply stated not interpreted.
Who did Jesus worship?
Interesting that a number of former LHMMrs that had the scriptures to show the Bible does not teach a trinity. Now without any scriptures that prove a trinity, accept the teaching.
Sadly, the teaching rejects the ransom. A perfect man Adam lost perfection and what was needed was a perfect man to supply the equal ransom price not a God.
Satan made a debate about a simple subject with eve and Job. Satan made it a seemingly difficult subject. Jesus said the truth would set us free.
Jesus corrected the false claim in verse 36, why do you continue to believe the lie?
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